One Line "Pet Hates" Get It Off Your Chest!

the place on the chorlton bulletin board for vegetable-spread related chatter and other matters...it's the first, the best and it's currently hack free.
TossPot
Posts: 364
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2007 6:44 pm

Re: One Line "Pet Hates" Get It Off Your Chest!

Postby TossPot » Thu Jan 26, 2012 5:06 pm

freeguitarlesson wrote:There is, I'm told by those who know, no grammatical rule that would prevent, or prescribe against, the splitting of the infinitive.


My understanding is that there is exactly such a rule, but that it applies to Latin grammar, not English.
'Drive-by insult merchant'

User avatar
digger
Posts: 1918
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2005 4:41 pm
Location: Whalley Range

Re: One Line "Pet Hates" Get It Off Your Chest!

Postby digger » Thu Jan 26, 2012 6:59 pm

My understanding is that it is a rule invented for English, by Latin scholars. It is fundamentally impossible to split an infinitive in Latin, since they are represented by a single word. With English "to be", "to speak" etc, it became possible but also frowned upon by those who were more used to communicating in Latin. There is no practical reason to legislate against split infinitives in English.
Our brains have just one scale, and we resize our experiences to fit.

Pearl
Posts: 582
Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 1:21 pm

Re: One Line "Pet Hates" Get It Off Your Chest!

Postby Pearl » Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:14 pm

Yes, that's my understanding too, Digger. Amare = To Love for example. (Anyone else here with O Level Latin?)

In fact I think quite a few of the so-called grammatical rules of English were either made up fairly recently or are based on nineteenth century misunderstandings of the rules of classical languages.

And many examples of what sound like newish Americanisms were once perfectly correct English, an example being gotten.

And don't get me started on not beginning sentences with And.

User avatar
annie
Posts: 4816
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2004 2:08 am
Location: Chorlton

Re: One Line "Pet Hates" Get It Off Your Chest!

Postby annie » Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:20 pm

Pearl wrote:
And don't get me started on not beginning sentences with And.


I sometimes do that for effect (like you). My writing style is very conversational, and as such, I often sneak in little grammatical quirks that we say in day-to-day usage, but are normally prohibited by the rules of grammar. I also sometimes start sentences with "because", so I am a serial offender.

However, I justify this to myself by using them in my "style", in full knowledge of the rules, and secure in my mastery of the English language, just to be cheeky :mrgreen:
One must always be wary of the march of the right-wing. I advocate public flogging/confiscation of assets/rehoming of their young

User avatar
Phila
Posts: 746
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 7:28 pm
Location: Slaptop Or SmacBook (Chorlton, Really)

Re: One Line "Pet Hates" Get It Off Your Chest!

Postby Phila » Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:01 pm

I still catch myself saying that awful "Can I get" thing. Particaularly when ordering coffee; now this cannot be a subconscious americanism, as I don't associate cawfee with the USA (only ironically).
But, "Please may I have" is so needy?

pip noo
Posts: 48
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:01 pm
Location: Chorlton Green

Re: One Line "Pet Hates" Get It Off Your Chest!

Postby pip noo » Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:43 pm

People who start every sentence with "at the end of the day" in an Essex accent.

Sarah_B
Posts: 515
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2009 11:57 pm
Location: Chorlton

Re: One Line "Pet Hates" Get It Off Your Chest!

Postby Sarah_B » Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:45 pm

Pearl wrote:
And don't get me started on not beginning sentences with And.


Pearl I would genuinely like to hear your thoughts on whether a sentence can begin with 'And'.

I was taught at school never to start sentences with 'And', 'But', 'However' etc.

However (is it right for me to put 'however' there???) only a few months ago at work we had one of those 'plain English' courses and were taught that although some people still frown upon starting sentences with 'and' apparently nowadays it is quite acceptable to do so but be mindful of who will read what you are writing as there are still a lot of people who don't approve of starting sentences with 'And'.

User avatar
Phila
Posts: 746
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 7:28 pm
Location: Slaptop Or SmacBook (Chorlton, Really)

Re: One Line "Pet Hates" Get It Off Your Chest!

Postby Phila » Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:43 pm

And yet I feel strangely compelled to answer. The key is to surely convey the message? Whilst there should be some grammatical rules, if possible, there should be allowance made for spontaneity?

User avatar
digger
Posts: 1918
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2005 4:41 pm
Location: Whalley Range

Re: One Line "Pet Hates" Get It Off Your Chest!

Postby digger » Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:46 am

Sarah_B wrote:I was taught at school never to start sentences with 'And', 'But', 'However' etc.

And there's the rub. Taught at school. It's a double whammy really. Irrespective of when you went to school, the teachers themselves were probably stuck regurgitating the rules they learned way back when. That's always presupposing they learned any in the first place. My recent experience of English teaching in schools would suggest it's woeful. We have a recent example here on our very own lovely Chorlton.web of someone - and they're in a rapidly rising minority - who believes it's correct to write "I could of done it myself" which always makes my teeth itch.

But I digress.

Language changes, grammar moves on, and it is now acceptable to use and and but to begin a sentence, although as annie mentioned it is still in the category of "use for effect" or "use sparingly" rather than being mainstream.
Our brains have just one scale, and we resize our experiences to fit.

User avatar
Paula Pickle
Posts: 166
Joined: Sat Jun 19, 2004 3:08 pm
Location: Elterwater, Lake District

Re: One Line "Pet Hates" Get It Off Your Chest!

Postby Paula Pickle » Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:56 pm

People who cannot say nuclear. They say "nucular", including the last President Bush.

gitface
Posts: 257
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2010 6:40 pm

Re: One Line "Pet Hates" Get It Off Your Chest!

Postby gitface » Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:49 pm

British Aerospace.

Pearl
Posts: 582
Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 1:21 pm

Re: One Line "Pet Hates" Get It Off Your Chest!

Postby Pearl » Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:04 pm

I'm with Annie and Digger on the "use for effect" approach to the breaking of grammatical rules. Even the plain English courses encourage you to break their own very sensible and pragmatic guidelines now and again, if it will add a bit of interest and vigour to what you're writing. As Annie points out, the key is to know what the rules are and why you're choosing to break them.

So yes, there are certainly times when I'd start a sentence with And or But. And maybe end it with a preposition too. Or even miss the verb out if I feel like it . . .

freeguitarlesson
Posts: 767
Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2009 3:58 pm

Re: One Line "Pet Hates" Get It Off Your Chest!

Postby freeguitarlesson » Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:27 pm

White Mancunian kids talking in a North-London Carribean patois.

"Omadaze!" etc...
"Your optimism strikes me like junk mail addressed to the dead..."

User avatar
annie
Posts: 4816
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2004 2:08 am
Location: Chorlton

Re: One Line "Pet Hates" Get It Off Your Chest!

Postby annie » Fri Jan 27, 2012 7:28 pm

freeguitarlesson wrote:White Mancunian kids talking in a North-London Carribean patois.

"Omadaze!" etc...


Best patois sketch ever...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcEA4qAl9m8
One must always be wary of the march of the right-wing. I advocate public flogging/confiscation of assets/rehoming of their young

Danny
Posts: 123
Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 10:42 am

Re: One Line "Pet Hates" Get It Off Your Chest!

Postby Danny » Mon Jan 30, 2012 11:49 am

pip noo wrote:People who start every sentence with "at the end of the day" in an Essex accent.

They're just letting you know at the start of the sentence that the rest of it will be wrong. Courteous, really.


Return to “Discussions”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 23 guests